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dkim=pass header.i=@siemens.com header.s=selector2 header.b=wIZa77q+; arc=pass (i=1 spf=pass spfdomain=siemens.com dkim=pass dkdomain=siemens.com dmarc=pass fromdomain=siemens.com); spf=pass (google.com: domain of chris.larson@siemens.com designates 2a01:111:f403:c000::1 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=chris.larson@siemens.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=siemens.com X-Original-From: Christopher Larson Reply-To: Christopher Larson Precedence: list Mailing-list: list isar-users@googlegroups.com; contact isar-users+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: isar-users@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 914930254986 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIMWL_WL_MED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL, RCVD_IN_RP_CERTIFIED,RCVD_IN_RP_RNBL,RCVD_IN_RP_SAFE,SPF_PASS autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on shymkent.ilbers.de X-TUID: CNORTCNNVLhZ On 9/26/2024 1:52 AM, Jan Kiszka wrote: > On 25.09.24 22:27, 'Christopher Larson' via isar-users wrote: >> Dear Isar Users, >> >> I would like to start a discussion about the possibility of supporting >> OE/Yocto-style features variables within the Isar project. Currently, >> Isar implements BASE_REPO_FEATURES and ROOTFS_FEATURES, which are quite >> useful. However, I believe that adding support for DISTRO_FEATURES, >> MACHINE_FEATURES, and possibly IMAGE_FEATURES would be worthwhile >> additions to consider. >> >> I want to preface this by acknowledging that my perspective is >> influenced by decades of experience with OpenEmbedded (OE) and OE-based >> products. I recognize that Isar has a different philosophy, favoring >> more direct approaches and fewer abstractions compared to OE. >> >> That said, I believe the value of these abstractions may justify the >> added complexity. It seems that many downstreams end up reinventing >> similar mechanisms for their own needs. For example, CIP adds >> INSTALL_WIRELESS_TOOLS, USE_CIP_KERNEL_CONFIG, and CIP_IMAGE_OPTIONS, >> the latter being a list of .inc files required by an image to allow for >> metadata reuse. Our usage at Siemens includes similar reinventions as we= ll. >> >> Certainly, we could leverage ROOTFS_FEATURES for certain rootfs/image >> capabilities beyond the existing postprocessing in Isar. Establishing a >> convention for including optional rootfs/image capabilities could avoid >> metadata duplication, simplify managing development vs. production >> filesystems, and provide customization mechanisms for downstreams. >> >> Regarding DISTRO_FEATURES and MACHINE_FEATURES, the Yocto documentation >> covers them in general. The original intention was to allow for a >> mechanism similar to Gentoo=E2=80=99s USE flags, coupled with OE=E2=80= =99s three >> orthogonal axes of distro, machine, and image. The intersection of these >> would control the outcome, allowing any combination to be viable. This >> results in machine support that is not tightly coupled to distro >> capabilities or policy decisions, avoiding the pattern of each >> downstream copying and modifying both distro and machine in a single >> layer. This decoupling could prevent issues like machines installing >> packages such as expand-on-first-boot unnecessarily. >> >> In OE, the intersection of these features determines certain >> functionalities. A common example is hardware capabilities like WiFi or >> Bluetooth, where the distro expresses a desire to support certain >> functionalities. Only if both the distro and machine support it will the >> required packages be installed. >> >> Details would need to be worked out, even if it is determined that this >> provides more value than it adds in complexity. The core of the global >> features in OE is their intersection in packagegroup-base, which >> determines the default installed packages in images built from the >> ground up. While this doesn=E2=80=99t make sense in Isar with a Debian b= ase >> image, there are still optional functionalities requiring package >> installation. Often, this requires more than just a single >> IMAGE_PREINSTALL line, so there=E2=80=99s value in having a simpler way = to >> express a desire to support that functionality. Isar may not need to >> utilize this functionality directly, but it could be beneficial to >> provide it for downstream use. >> >> Downstreams can and do implement functionality like this if they want >> to, so I understand the argument for continuing this approach. However, >> I believe there is value in providing basic functions to utilize such >> capabilities and documented conventions for doing so consistently. >> >> I would love to hear what both Isar core developers and downstream >> developers think about the possibility of providing a mechanism for >> using variables like these. I believe that the ability to provide an >> easier customization mechanism and an abstraction to better separate >> concerns between the distro, machine, and images would be valuable. It >> would also ease rootfs customization based on desired system features >> (distro) and hardware capabilities (machine), if one uses these to >> adjust ROOTFS_FEATURES. >> >> I don=E2=80=99t believe the default behavior of OE=E2=80=99s IMAGE_FEATU= RES, where >> package lists are defined in FEATURE_PACKAGES_, is worth including here. >> It=E2=80=99s not difficult for developers to manually implement package = grouping >> using features if needed, and it=E2=80=99s often better to create separa= te >> packages if multiple dependencies should be pulled in at once. >> >=20 > Thanks for the suggestion. As you mentioned already that you see > potential to re-model and unify existing public layers with such a > proposal, how about laying out how those would look like? Would make > this discussion a bit more concrete, specifically for those of us not so > long into OE like you are. Greetings, Thanks for all the replies to this, I appreciate the input. I'll start=20 by considering OE/Yocto's usage of features, options for how to=20 emphasize their use in isar, my personal recommendation for how to=20 proceed, and finally look into what the usage would look like in a=20 specific downstream example as suggested To update the status on this, I've been working on a more concrete=20 proposal to follow-up on the email discussion, as was requested, but=20 it's not entirely clear as to the best approach. I feel like these are=20 likely the main options: 1. Do nothing, features can be implemented by downstream layers. 2. Ease use of features by downstream layers, potentially by=20 creating wrapper functions, or at the least default definitions of the=20 features variables, and specifically COMBINED_FEATURES. 3. Enforce more structure on features usage such as through=20 inclusion of .inc or .bbclass files the way we have for features in our=20 layer and cip has for image options. OE/Yocto largely does the second, defining default values, and then=20 using features in multiple places within the layer. They also provide a=20 bbclass to require distro features for a given recipe, and an optional=20 bbclass to ease use of features through overrides, and the=20 packagegroup-base recipe which does not apply for us. Of course, we also=20 don't intend to leverage the features within isar itself at this time=20 the way oe-core does. Wrapper functions tend to be avoided, in large part due to signature=20 generation. BitBake's checksum generation for task signatures involves=20 tracking variable dependencies and usage, and has special handling for=20 bb.utils.contains(), which allows a variable to depend on the presence=20 or absence of a feature from a features variable, without becoming=20 dependent on the entirety of the features variable. Wrapping this=20 function to ease calls would both be an added indirection that I feel=20 adds an unnecessary abstraction to gain that slight ease of use, it will=20 also prevent the signature generation from tracking feature usage fully. I also feel that inclusion of a .inc or .bbclass for each feature is=20 rather indirect, and doesn't align with how isar uses rootfs_features=20 via a single bbclass extension for multiple features. I think this may=20 be done by some downstreams, but is a tad too indirect for isar as a=20 core layer. To sum up, I feel that this proposal is largely to encourage the use of=20 features variables and to add to the isar documentation to encourage=20 their use, more than much direct implementation code. I'd think the=20 following would be a good start: 1. Add default DISTRO_FEATURES, MACHINE_FEATURES, COMBINED_FEATURES=20 values, even if the first two are empty by default, and the latter=20 should use inline python to ensure it's the intersection of the first two. 2. Add to the docs to encourage use of the features variables, and=20 specifically the use of bb.utils.contains, bb.utils.contains_any, and=20 bb.utils.filter, to do so. 3. Add a test using features to the test suite. 4. Consider adding a class to ease use of features with overrides,=20 as this can be helpful when defining many variables which are=20 conditional on a feature. This should reduce the perceived need for=20 feature-based file inclusion, I believe. distrooverrides.bbclass in=20 oe-core or featureoverrides in sokol-flex could be candidate options to=20 consider as a starting point. As possible options for downstream layers to use features rather than=20 custom solutions, we can consider possibilities for CIP_IMAGE_OPTIONS.=20 Rather than isar-cip-core's CIP_IMAGE_OPTIONS listing .inc files to=20 include, it could add an image extension bbclass which directly defines=20 the variables based on ROOTFS_FEATURES or IMAGE_FEATURES, or it could=20 keep the .inc inclusion and do so based on the features rather than a=20 new variable. The main benefit there would be consistency rather than=20 any other concrete benefit, however. The benefit of the use of distro and machine I believe would aid in=20 making the distro and machine less tightly bound, which should ease long=20 term maintenance of the downstream layers, but this is difficult to show=20 in a trivial example. I'll look into one of the public downstreams to=20 try a PR as a suggested example. --=20 Christopher Larson Siemens AG www.siemens.com --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= isar-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to isar-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= isar-users/086d0928-13c2-478d-8e39-c89c15526912%40siemens.com.