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dkim=pass header.i=@siemens.com header.s=selector2 header.b=kp5murNc; arc=pass (i=1 spf=pass spfdomain=siemens.com dkim=pass dkdomain=siemens.com dmarc=pass fromdomain=siemens.com); spf=pass (google.com: domain of chris.larson@siemens.com designates 2a01:111:f403:c105::1 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=chris.larson@siemens.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=siemens.com X-Original-From: Christopher Larson Reply-To: Christopher Larson Precedence: list Mailing-list: list isar-users@googlegroups.com; contact isar-users+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: isar-users@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 914930254986 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIMWL_WL_MED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL,RCVD_IN_RP_CERTIFIED, RCVD_IN_RP_RNBL,RCVD_IN_RP_SAFE,SPF_PASS autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on shymkent.ilbers.de X-TUID: kXrfC8CAOhe/ Dear Isar Users, I would like to start a discussion about the possibility of supporting=20 OE/Yocto-style features variables within the Isar project. Currently,=20 Isar implements BASE_REPO_FEATURES and ROOTFS_FEATURES, which are quite=20 useful. However, I believe that adding support for DISTRO_FEATURES,=20 MACHINE_FEATURES, and possibly IMAGE_FEATURES would be worthwhile=20 additions to consider. I want to preface this by acknowledging that my perspective is=20 influenced by decades of experience with OpenEmbedded (OE) and OE-based=20 products. I recognize that Isar has a different philosophy, favoring=20 more direct approaches and fewer abstractions compared to OE. That said, I believe the value of these abstractions may justify the=20 added complexity. It seems that many downstreams end up reinventing=20 similar mechanisms for their own needs. For example, CIP adds=20 INSTALL_WIRELESS_TOOLS, USE_CIP_KERNEL_CONFIG, and CIP_IMAGE_OPTIONS,=20 the latter being a list of .inc files required by an image to allow for=20 metadata reuse. Our usage at Siemens includes similar reinventions as well. Certainly, we could leverage ROOTFS_FEATURES for certain rootfs/image=20 capabilities beyond the existing postprocessing in Isar. Establishing a=20 convention for including optional rootfs/image capabilities could avoid=20 metadata duplication, simplify managing development vs. production=20 filesystems, and provide customization mechanisms for downstreams. Regarding DISTRO_FEATURES and MACHINE_FEATURES, the Yocto documentation=20 covers them in general. The original intention was to allow for a=20 mechanism similar to Gentoo=E2=80=99s USE flags, coupled with OE=E2=80=99s = three=20 orthogonal axes of distro, machine, and image. The intersection of these=20 would control the outcome, allowing any combination to be viable. This=20 results in machine support that is not tightly coupled to distro=20 capabilities or policy decisions, avoiding the pattern of each=20 downstream copying and modifying both distro and machine in a single=20 layer. This decoupling could prevent issues like machines installing=20 packages such as expand-on-first-boot unnecessarily. In OE, the intersection of these features determines certain=20 functionalities. A common example is hardware capabilities like WiFi or=20 Bluetooth, where the distro expresses a desire to support certain=20 functionalities. Only if both the distro and machine support it will the=20 required packages be installed. Details would need to be worked out, even if it is determined that this=20 provides more value than it adds in complexity. The core of the global=20 features in OE is their intersection in packagegroup-base, which=20 determines the default installed packages in images built from the=20 ground up. While this doesn=E2=80=99t make sense in Isar with a Debian base= =20 image, there are still optional functionalities requiring package=20 installation. Often, this requires more than just a single=20 IMAGE_PREINSTALL line, so there=E2=80=99s value in having a simpler way to= =20 express a desire to support that functionality. Isar may not need to=20 utilize this functionality directly, but it could be beneficial to=20 provide it for downstream use. Downstreams can and do implement functionality like this if they want=20 to, so I understand the argument for continuing this approach. However,=20 I believe there is value in providing basic functions to utilize such=20 capabilities and documented conventions for doing so consistently. I would love to hear what both Isar core developers and downstream=20 developers think about the possibility of providing a mechanism for=20 using variables like these. I believe that the ability to provide an=20 easier customization mechanism and an abstraction to better separate=20 concerns between the distro, machine, and images would be valuable. It=20 would also ease rootfs customization based on desired system features=20 (distro) and hardware capabilities (machine), if one uses these to=20 adjust ROOTFS_FEATURES. I don=E2=80=99t believe the default behavior of OE=E2=80=99s IMAGE_FEATURES= , where=20 package lists are defined in FEATURE_PACKAGES_, is worth including here.=20 It=E2=80=99s not difficult for developers to manually implement package gro= uping=20 using features if needed, and it=E2=80=99s often better to create separate= =20 packages if multiple dependencies should be pulled in at once. Looking forward to your thoughts and feedback. Best regards, --=20 Christopher Larson Siemens AG www.siemens.com --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= isar-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to isar-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= isar-users/27f2f225-d7c4-40dd-a4db-431eeb31cc52%40siemens.com.