From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-GM-THRID: 6524973730788016128 X-Received: by 10.80.200.202 with SMTP id k10mr2327889edh.10.1521104324118; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:58:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: isar-users@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.80.192.24 with SMTP id r24ls667395edb.3.gmail; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:58:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvKB7t+2zm+k5lub/dZgPjCqXIiHB1ix4z4zMpG9nPxIL0EtJ4qtcB5ko/AdKkKm/XgFF+b X-Received: by 10.80.203.140 with SMTP id k12mr2334490edi.3.1521104323553; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:58:43 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1521104323; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=al2Yq0ac6tbc4hfZMGi2h7FIrjtwQKXuEbLeR8X+SnxpCPKw4p32p8FWn7sJ2Gte7x azuNuiH+LxSH2r5jrcnJmyOIAUi7vLRSXuUN96V+EFXcwYanHd6lIei//BstDlcqqvIP 8mMZPq3XuhNRNfhUnVx21+30Mps+Uz26z7EAOg+Y6PI/H2kDHphIGTzrzr9AWXTMUsVc g0W6ncaZQxpaZBl6Zqsj0zEEXKjqmDsoseUReMlWvhu7PrmrqSidzyIwilrpHvwiAOIG fFd5zF/spPYmybP1CEUT+vST4mjAC7vmqTDIYR3FHg2taAhYUwByIS54QMoGien5kBym ElZQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-language:in-reply-to:mime-version :user-agent:date:message-id:from:references:to:subject :arc-authentication-results; bh=xeAxbD3YqhIDpyO1tafCSxSB8kbVrtNxa/+UNbEBlZo=; b=wqbGKsAxvmae+cvoc8rjTHvz3t8cWZ4g5XlRThPXDPq8V5rOZEtaGU1n26gwsj1syc vHAtR88IfN7v8KgWqOSw6CsKBlo2G98H1JZZkZOH7l2W6XaWmlMgDGsdndr9U0QIkixK TNBNpNRH46zBoeyVxeDBsNP3Fjz+61riRDAn4KicF1OVtsFx4v1Rb0Kf3eQZCgm8xJ49 LOfh2gBEn1B/gge+6xi4U+ZKZii2V6PvAZ8SGHhOIA5Q65mZOrU9dP8ChNTWYMY6gdVZ 6w3tAtLvtx+Bh4D3jzW0rjP2FBmz2FBlFj+5W/Qg87tcp2OI1H/yEd8JCvCwXnF3xXac j0UA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of asmirnov@ilbers.de designates 85.214.62.211 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asmirnov@ilbers.de Return-Path: Received: from aqmola.ilbers.de (aqmola.ilbers.de. [85.214.62.211]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t11si93028edc.1.2018.03.15.01.58.43 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of asmirnov@ilbers.de designates 85.214.62.211 as permitted sender) client-ip=85.214.62.211; Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of asmirnov@ilbers.de designates 85.214.62.211 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asmirnov@ilbers.de Received: from [10.0.2.15] ([188.227.110.165]) (authenticated bits=0) by aqmola.ilbers.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4+deb7u1) with ESMTP id w2F8wdra018024 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:58:41 +0100 Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 1/5] implement isar-bootstrap using debootstrap To: Claudius Heine , Jan Kiszka , Claudius Heine , isar-users@googlegroups.com References: <20180307164457.31933-1-claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com> <20180307164457.31933-2-claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com> <11d20fad-e1bc-2e0d-e227-2c4ddc512dcb@ilbers.de> <1521021141.16621.86.camel@denx.de> <1521036867.16621.120.camel@denx.de> From: Alexander Smirnov Message-ID: <29de9170-10ee-2ad9-38ed-feeed561d6f0@ilbers.de> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:58:34 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-TUID: p9G4zFrJ35qr On 03/15/2018 11:05 AM, Claudius Heine wrote: > Hi Alex, hi Jan, > > On 03/14/2018 07:53 PM, Jan Kiszka wrote: >> On 2018-03-14 07:25, Alexander Smirnov wrote: >>> On 03/14/2018 05:14 PM, Claudius Heine wrote: >>>> Hi Alex, >>>> >>>> On Wed, 2018-03-14 at 13:38 +0300, Alexander Smirnov wrote: >>>>> On 03/14/2018 12:52 PM, Claudius Heine wrote: >>>>>> Hi Alex, >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 2018-03-14 at 11:56 +0300, Alexander Smirnov wrote: >>>>>>> On 03/07/2018 07:44 PM, claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com wrote: >>>>>>>> From: Claudius Heine >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Since multistrap is deprecated for some years, it is required >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> change >>>>>>>> to debootstrap. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This patch introduces the 'isar-bootstrap' recipe that >>>>>>>> implement >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> creation of a minimal base root file system using debootstrap. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why do you use term 'bootstrap'? It's completely different topic >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> debootstrap. >>>>>> >>>>>> Because I want to be implementation independent. If for some reason >>>>>> someone wants to change the name of the tool again (I know its not >>>>>> to >>>>>> be expected), this way only the implementation of the isar- >>>>>> bootstrap >>>>>> needs to be changed. >>>>>> In theory with an alternative implementation of some interfaces >>>>>> other >>>>>> distribution could be supported. I don't know in which direction >>>>>> isar >>>>>> will go, but binding your interface names to tightly to the name of >>>>>> some third-party products is not a good idea. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I tried is called loose coupling and that is generally seen as >>>>>> a >>>>>> good software design pattern. >>>>>> >>>>>>>     According to the wiki: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBootstrap#Bootstrapping >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bootstraping is a process of creation Debian from zero to a full >>>>>>> archive. >>>>>> >>>>>> The word "bootstrapping" is used in many projects and generally >>>>>> describes starting something from almost nothing. Also this >>>>>> patchset >>>>>> doesn't use "DebianBootstrap" is uses "isar-bootstrap". >>>>> >>>>> In this case just do not use terms from Debian world. >>>> >>>> I didn't. I use 'isar-bootstrap' and neither it nor its parts 'isar' >>>> nor 'bootstrap' is a term that is exclusively used with Debian. >>>> >>>> 'bootstrap' is a common term in computer science with many different >>>> meaning. If someone heard 'bootstrap' only used by the Debian project >>>> before, that that is their problem. I think I heard it first in some >>>> projects as the 'bootstrap.sh' shell script that takes care about >>>> initializing the build environment correctly. I might have been a bit >>>> confused when I heard that they also describe the first compilation of >>>> compiler by an other one written in a different language as >>>> bootstrapping, but that might just be because English is my second >>>> language. >>>> >>>>>    It would be enough >>>>> to name it like 'base-rootfs'. That's for example, how 'buildchroot' >>>>> term was invented, to avoid intersections with 'sysroot' and >>>>> 'buildroot'. >>>> >>>> 'sysroot' and 'buildroot' are names that where invented by someone, >>>> 'bootstrap' is a word, like 'face' or 'book'. I don't automatically >>>> think of 'facebook' just because I read the word 'book' or 'face' in >>>> some other context. >>>> >>>> Personally I don't like to add another '*base*' thing to isar. We >>> >>> I didn't ask to use it, I only tried to describe the idea. Whatever else >>> could be used, but without intersections with Debian. > > So then why did you bring this up if you don't have an alternative > suggestion I should use instead? That just sounds like destructive > criticism. > > Since I don't think that there is an intersection in the nomenclatures > of Debian with the name 'isar-bootstrap' I choose to use this name. > > Or should I now start guessing what other name you might prefer? What is > this? > >>> >>>> already have 'isar-image-base' and 'dpkg-base'. And this recipe is >>>> should not be used as a 'base' to be included or inherited upon like >>>> the others. So 'base-roofs' as a recipe name does not fit IMO. >>>> >>>> (Also when I hear 'base' I think about numbers and get very confused ;) >>>> >>>> I still prefer 'isar-bootstrap' since its output should be what of some >>>>    kind of distro-specific system bootstrap machanism, like >>>> debootstrap, >>>> febootstrap (now supermin), pacstrap, ..., generates. >>>> If the distro-specific bootstrap mechanism builds its 'bootstraped root >>>> file system' from a bunch of binary packages or directly from source is >>>> implementation and distro specific. So the distinction only makes sense >>>> in the upstream project but not here, since we are just using what the >>>> upstream distributions provides for general consumption. >>> >>> I asked the question, but you cut it, so I'm going to repost the whole >>> quote here: >>> >>> 8<-- >>> >>> AFAIK there are 2 kinds opinions in Debian community about bootstraping: >>>   - Build from sources (DebianBootstrap, rebootstrap) >>>   - Install from debs (debootstrap) >>> >>> My question, why it's so important to use initially ambiguous term, >>> which may lead to potential confusing for Debian users? >>> >>> 8<-- >> >> I hope we can settle on this topic quickly, specifically as this >> internal naming of classes are not really user-facing. > It's not only about internal class names, this series introduces 'do_bootstrap' task that is visible to user and will be a part of documentation. My position is simple: I read patches and if I've found something unclear, I'm trying to understand what was the reason going this way. Regarding bootstraping, I provided above 2 kinds of interpretation of this process in Debian, so this term is initially ambiguous. If you use deboostrap, it's ok to name tasks/recipes/etc respectively (do_debootstrap, ...). If in future this code will be refactored to support other rootfs creation mechanisms, it'll be very easy to rename these files/classes. Moreover, at the moment there is no other option for debootstrap, so it's only about something hypothetical in future, what could never happen. @Jan: I've got your opinion, so nothing else from me. > I really hope so as well. Arguing about internal names is very annoying. > @Claudius: For me is very annoying when my question is ignored after explicit re-posting. So let's be polite and keep conversations here free of emotions. Alex