From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-GM-THRID: 6524973730788016128 X-Received: by 10.28.212.200 with SMTP id l191mr524782wmg.9.1521101144529; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:05:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: isar-users@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.28.45.136 with SMTP id t130ls841746wmt.7.gmail; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:05:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtKNmj7PcVrwcVHx9LZm7GTd2b28psWBuDvE/6rybkPipohzEIDi+6f9newnVGVonHatRvQ X-Received: by 10.28.156.138 with SMTP id f132mr545271wme.21.1521101143971; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:05:43 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1521101143; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=fPDoS/7YmPF43E04ft+VrGIuTCt2rIQN8eWWr2W7Uwdiz3tnxkQ7gQeWNnoZJimCeF qspLnAz1d/5TfXZ+mnJ5I6Ls5FWVW6oVaLDdU7BcTmBHpMoGcRnPJVIUruk41F1cCyi2 xYMTIlWt1+fxIiAgxZRY1IWCQVhOJPya97pgOjrxY7rkP1Hz/anX7lfhRcCnNmFs+e5y 8YyJMm1fuElWGRofkUs23MWqhGZsR+xTxMemWzrumDFV4gXvBL8Y36xB31QxbYe7j12L VpPewlV4RY9zaOUUPl6saiCEmNgBnt/6ysKN8XWIxU7l1HDmiILAH5mZkwpkb5MG1VK/ BX/Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-language:in-reply-to:mime-version :user-agent:date:message-id:from:references:to:subject :arc-authentication-results; bh=/dPOMm7ezp3tg6Y1lyY7zRkeagKLfp1GLsZJbewokrI=; b=mZtWetlM1IGGzg8yBgn+K4QB8PbDyFUgbBZ5dE/c8sXlD2ORTWgRnbVEQDJsAPj6VK XqkHjIv7Av2cncj+ELHhHlipMYjsLCrWuHJwv8JqT99yF65woelheccD1UK8hwRioFp7 b7U0f11tsfAHCOAagVTvLTB2V+1s/U1o8HoXE+O0ekwysNIUCkt4Fl0lcFjGMl77Mxss h+PhLI5LnO+OKgRDJaj6K8WmLqPn02m+zonNbGYXFYnLnRbW4xKP8ssuUo5X56M/Hcbg 0il80QIBFD1k7sDEhKvGkEMcJEN7JCI5DSI4IUpqJAP4wZNGyD369eZFfUWvztn3NU4A Og6g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com designates 192.35.17.2 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com Return-Path: Received: from thoth.sbs.de (thoth.sbs.de. [192.35.17.2]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 90si75326wrl.1.2018.03.15.01.05.43 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com designates 192.35.17.2 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.35.17.2; Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com designates 192.35.17.2 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com Received: from mail1.sbs.de (mail1.sbs.de [192.129.41.35]) by thoth.sbs.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w2F85hPx011296 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:05:43 +0100 Received: from [139.25.68.223] (linux-ses-ext02.ppmd.siemens.net [139.25.68.223]) by mail1.sbs.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w2F85hTT000573; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:05:43 +0100 Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 1/5] implement isar-bootstrap using debootstrap To: Jan Kiszka , Alexander Smirnov , Claudius Heine , isar-users@googlegroups.com References: <20180307164457.31933-1-claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com> <20180307164457.31933-2-claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com> <11d20fad-e1bc-2e0d-e227-2c4ddc512dcb@ilbers.de> <1521021141.16621.86.camel@denx.de> <1521036867.16621.120.camel@denx.de> From: Claudius Heine Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:05:42 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-TUID: ITHunryux9w4 Hi Alex, hi Jan, On 03/14/2018 07:53 PM, Jan Kiszka wrote: > On 2018-03-14 07:25, Alexander Smirnov wrote: >> On 03/14/2018 05:14 PM, Claudius Heine wrote: >>> Hi Alex, >>> >>> On Wed, 2018-03-14 at 13:38 +0300, Alexander Smirnov wrote: >>>> On 03/14/2018 12:52 PM, Claudius Heine wrote: >>>>> Hi Alex, >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 2018-03-14 at 11:56 +0300, Alexander Smirnov wrote: >>>>>> On 03/07/2018 07:44 PM, claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com wrote: >>>>>>> From: Claudius Heine >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Since multistrap is deprecated for some years, it is required >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> change >>>>>>> to debootstrap. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This patch introduces the 'isar-bootstrap' recipe that >>>>>>> implement >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> creation of a minimal base root file system using debootstrap. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Why do you use term 'bootstrap'? It's completely different topic >>>>>> than >>>>>> debootstrap. >>>>> >>>>> Because I want to be implementation independent. If for some reason >>>>> someone wants to change the name of the tool again (I know its not >>>>> to >>>>> be expected), this way only the implementation of the isar- >>>>> bootstrap >>>>> needs to be changed. >>>>> In theory with an alternative implementation of some interfaces >>>>> other >>>>> distribution could be supported. I don't know in which direction >>>>> isar >>>>> will go, but binding your interface names to tightly to the name of >>>>> some third-party products is not a good idea. >>>>> >>>>> What I tried is called loose coupling and that is generally seen as >>>>> a >>>>> good software design pattern. >>>>> >>>>>>    According to the wiki: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBootstrap#Bootstrapping >>>>>> >>>>>> Bootstraping is a process of creation Debian from zero to a full >>>>>> archive. >>>>> >>>>> The word "bootstrapping" is used in many projects and generally >>>>> describes starting something from almost nothing. Also this >>>>> patchset >>>>> doesn't use "DebianBootstrap" is uses "isar-bootstrap". >>>> >>>> In this case just do not use terms from Debian world. >>> >>> I didn't. I use 'isar-bootstrap' and neither it nor its parts 'isar' >>> nor 'bootstrap' is a term that is exclusively used with Debian. >>> >>> 'bootstrap' is a common term in computer science with many different >>> meaning. If someone heard 'bootstrap' only used by the Debian project >>> before, that that is their problem. I think I heard it first in some >>> projects as the 'bootstrap.sh' shell script that takes care about >>> initializing the build environment correctly. I might have been a bit >>> confused when I heard that they also describe the first compilation of >>> compiler by an other one written in a different language as >>> bootstrapping, but that might just be because English is my second >>> language. >>> >>>>   It would be enough >>>> to name it like 'base-rootfs'. That's for example, how 'buildchroot' >>>> term was invented, to avoid intersections with 'sysroot' and >>>> 'buildroot'. >>> >>> 'sysroot' and 'buildroot' are names that where invented by someone, >>> 'bootstrap' is a word, like 'face' or 'book'. I don't automatically >>> think of 'facebook' just because I read the word 'book' or 'face' in >>> some other context. >>> >>> Personally I don't like to add another '*base*' thing to isar. We >> >> I didn't ask to use it, I only tried to describe the idea. Whatever else >> could be used, but without intersections with Debian. So then why did you bring this up if you don't have an alternative suggestion I should use instead? That just sounds like destructive criticism. Since I don't think that there is an intersection in the nomenclatures of Debian with the name 'isar-bootstrap' I choose to use this name. Or should I now start guessing what other name you might prefer? What is this? >> >>> already have 'isar-image-base' and 'dpkg-base'. And this recipe is >>> should not be used as a 'base' to be included or inherited upon like >>> the others. So 'base-roofs' as a recipe name does not fit IMO. >>> >>> (Also when I hear 'base' I think about numbers and get very confused ;) >>> >>> I still prefer 'isar-bootstrap' since its output should be what of some >>>   kind of distro-specific system bootstrap machanism, like debootstrap, >>> febootstrap (now supermin), pacstrap, ..., generates. >>> If the distro-specific bootstrap mechanism builds its 'bootstraped root >>> file system' from a bunch of binary packages or directly from source is >>> implementation and distro specific. So the distinction only makes sense >>> in the upstream project but not here, since we are just using what the >>> upstream distributions provides for general consumption. >> >> I asked the question, but you cut it, so I'm going to repost the whole >> quote here: >> >> 8<-- >> >> AFAIK there are 2 kinds opinions in Debian community about bootstraping: >>  - Build from sources (DebianBootstrap, rebootstrap) >>  - Install from debs (debootstrap) >> >> My question, why it's so important to use initially ambiguous term, >> which may lead to potential confusing for Debian users? >> >> 8<-- > > I hope we can settle on this topic quickly, specifically as this > internal naming of classes are not really user-facing. I really hope so as well. Arguing about internal names is very annoying. Claudius -- DENX Software Engineering GmbH, Managing Director: Wolfgang Denk HRB 165235 Munich, Office: Kirchenstr.5, D-82194 Groebenzell, Germany Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-54 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: ch@denx.de