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[85.214.62.211]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a33si15469ede.3.2018.03.14.07.25.26 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Mar 2018 07:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of asmirnov@ilbers.de designates 85.214.62.211 as permitted sender) client-ip=85.214.62.211; Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of asmirnov@ilbers.de designates 85.214.62.211 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asmirnov@ilbers.de Received: from [10.0.2.15] ([188.227.110.165]) (authenticated bits=0) by aqmola.ilbers.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4+deb7u1) with ESMTP id w2EEPLaK014172 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 14 Mar 2018 15:25:23 +0100 Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 1/5] implement isar-bootstrap using debootstrap To: Claudius Heine , claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com, isar-users@googlegroups.com References: <20180307164457.31933-1-claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com> <20180307164457.31933-2-claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com> <11d20fad-e1bc-2e0d-e227-2c4ddc512dcb@ilbers.de> <1521021141.16621.86.camel@denx.de> <1521036867.16621.120.camel@denx.de> From: Alexander Smirnov Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 17:25:16 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1521036867.16621.120.camel@denx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-TUID: K8+qH8flgrt6 On 03/14/2018 05:14 PM, Claudius Heine wrote: > Hi Alex, > > On Wed, 2018-03-14 at 13:38 +0300, Alexander Smirnov wrote: >> On 03/14/2018 12:52 PM, Claudius Heine wrote: >>> Hi Alex, >>> >>> On Wed, 2018-03-14 at 11:56 +0300, Alexander Smirnov wrote: >>>> On 03/07/2018 07:44 PM, claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com wrote: >>>>> From: Claudius Heine >>>>> >>>>> Since multistrap is deprecated for some years, it is required >>>>> to >>>>> change >>>>> to debootstrap. >>>>> >>>>> This patch introduces the 'isar-bootstrap' recipe that >>>>> implement >>>>> the >>>>> creation of a minimal base root file system using debootstrap. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Why do you use term 'bootstrap'? It's completely different topic >>>> than >>>> debootstrap. >>> >>> Because I want to be implementation independent. If for some reason >>> someone wants to change the name of the tool again (I know its not >>> to >>> be expected), this way only the implementation of the isar- >>> bootstrap >>> needs to be changed. >>> In theory with an alternative implementation of some interfaces >>> other >>> distribution could be supported. I don't know in which direction >>> isar >>> will go, but binding your interface names to tightly to the name of >>> some third-party products is not a good idea. >>> >>> What I tried is called loose coupling and that is generally seen as >>> a >>> good software design pattern. >>> >>>> According to the wiki: >>>> >>>> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBootstrap#Bootstrapping >>>> >>>> Bootstraping is a process of creation Debian from zero to a full >>>> archive. >>> >>> The word "bootstrapping" is used in many projects and generally >>> describes starting something from almost nothing. Also this >>> patchset >>> doesn't use "DebianBootstrap" is uses "isar-bootstrap". >> >> In this case just do not use terms from Debian world. > > I didn't. I use 'isar-bootstrap' and neither it nor its parts 'isar' > nor 'bootstrap' is a term that is exclusively used with Debian. > > 'bootstrap' is a common term in computer science with many different > meaning. If someone heard 'bootstrap' only used by the Debian project > before, that that is their problem. I think I heard it first in some > projects as the 'bootstrap.sh' shell script that takes care about > initializing the build environment correctly. I might have been a bit > confused when I heard that they also describe the first compilation of > compiler by an other one written in a different language as > bootstrapping, but that might just be because English is my second > language. > >> It would be enough >> to name it like 'base-rootfs'. That's for example, how 'buildchroot' >> term was invented, to avoid intersections with 'sysroot' and >> 'buildroot'. > > 'sysroot' and 'buildroot' are names that where invented by someone, > 'bootstrap' is a word, like 'face' or 'book'. I don't automatically > think of 'facebook' just because I read the word 'book' or 'face' in > some other context. > > Personally I don't like to add another '*base*' thing to isar. We I didn't ask to use it, I only tried to describe the idea. Whatever else could be used, but without intersections with Debian. > already have 'isar-image-base' and 'dpkg-base'. And this recipe is > should not be used as a 'base' to be included or inherited upon like > the others. So 'base-roofs' as a recipe name does not fit IMO. > > (Also when I hear 'base' I think about numbers and get very confused ;) > > I still prefer 'isar-bootstrap' since its output should be what of some > kind of distro-specific system bootstrap machanism, like debootstrap, > febootstrap (now supermin), pacstrap, ..., generates. > If the distro-specific bootstrap mechanism builds its 'bootstraped root > file system' from a bunch of binary packages or directly from source is > implementation and distro specific. So the distinction only makes sense > in the upstream project but not here, since we are just using what the > upstream distributions provides for general consumption. I asked the question, but you cut it, so I'm going to repost the whole quote here: 8<-- AFAIK there are 2 kinds opinions in Debian community about bootstraping: - Build from sources (DebianBootstrap, rebootstrap) - Install from debs (debootstrap) My question, why it's so important to use initially ambiguous term, which may lead to potential confusing for Debian users? 8<-- Alex