From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-GM-THRID: 6524973730788016128 X-Received: by 10.80.200.202 with SMTP id k10mr1768390edh.10.1521053615626; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:53:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: isar-users@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.80.192.24 with SMTP id r24ls38492edb.3.gmail; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:53:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELs44QGKAytc9QbfiaAU4NEdOsgyN3pM3GyLhSFblU+V9ngGyANidBS/OZn2/6mTRR9ufcn6 X-Received: by 10.80.146.109 with SMTP id j42mr1761849eda.6.1521053614944; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:53:34 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1521053614; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=XqZWJwXurJsSS2azvPaIuMFufYvEG2txrlZ65Eb5wdTi4iHry5sK36OClRg5FfdqYY 27/MFs6nik6/ga1vvqNjcOYh8PUlQSvZ0jCxlQkaukru/BDYS9/eiZRIx+pKUELs3Bkh 1MLydqU2FB+yqVA4H8Luc/vqWS18Nfn9NzEuKd25Y71jgPxJTy5s7ZqQz8t/K/8GAoG4 GX77EjOxtz2nSjunLuZww9CRmAnzeRhREzTBYwQ6rYyjKShX+wAhqpDPlh6q6tNR0HYT aMPAREjke9Hj9XFJP3LKGbOxrQz5LhY2i51Dm4k/MWop8By/PhTgKsoTkOJGdAnTEMmr DjQw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-language:in-reply-to:mime-version :user-agent:date:message-id:from:references:to:subject :arc-authentication-results; bh=+2pXVGg6VLfuuRcPCQfyUucIxpDYdg5t25HDkEdc1Xc=; b=OWykxKB2yamJKUeECSpcwSLsPL+wCJolHRLa9u8ubFGXaWKYK/tRAGZvavRQJxQAZ7 9GHazVyq1PKyCaobl67alf6WuRSDUfln1VP+rEUo5OU4/9esIckh1fGNIgpfkb/vakr7 sW9eFaIy4ubD8H8DbaOKp1NkhWBN34Xt6AfBtR3yeYd546b72Vt3wSYo2KULVa+WPH+q ae5RWQZruZLGvFOjjOOelI4kvNKuIOyzD6ZMWG8r6CNj+uHDcpMA3CoYFAaM7cOHIBiD keJlUZu1Gjw/dhlxuK+LN+VjeboyH85A894jizZhqKCD3k7aLBQXQLbLmP2RSQ8AKdnb LKCA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jan.kiszka@siemens.com designates 192.35.17.2 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jan.kiszka@siemens.com Return-Path: Received: from thoth.sbs.de (thoth.sbs.de. [192.35.17.2]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f9si33762edm.2.2018.03.14.11.53.34 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jan.kiszka@siemens.com designates 192.35.17.2 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.35.17.2; Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jan.kiszka@siemens.com designates 192.35.17.2 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jan.kiszka@siemens.com Received: from mail2.siemens.de (mail2.siemens.de [139.25.208.11]) by thoth.sbs.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w2EIrYDp023723 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 14 Mar 2018 19:53:34 +0100 Received: from [167.87.166.86] ([167.87.166.86]) by mail2.siemens.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w2EIrVAV016829; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 19:53:32 +0100 Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 1/5] implement isar-bootstrap using debootstrap To: Alexander Smirnov , Claudius Heine , claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com, isar-users@googlegroups.com References: <20180307164457.31933-1-claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com> <20180307164457.31933-2-claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com> <11d20fad-e1bc-2e0d-e227-2c4ddc512dcb@ilbers.de> <1521021141.16621.86.camel@denx.de> <1521036867.16621.120.camel@denx.de> From: Jan Kiszka Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:53:31 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); de; rv:1.8.1.12) Gecko/20080226 SUSE/2.0.0.12-1.1 Thunderbird/2.0.0.12 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-TUID: 1xeSpRd7onW/ On 2018-03-14 07:25, Alexander Smirnov wrote: > On 03/14/2018 05:14 PM, Claudius Heine wrote: >> Hi Alex, >> >> On Wed, 2018-03-14 at 13:38 +0300, Alexander Smirnov wrote: >>> On 03/14/2018 12:52 PM, Claudius Heine wrote: >>>> Hi Alex, >>>> >>>> On Wed, 2018-03-14 at 11:56 +0300, Alexander Smirnov wrote: >>>>> On 03/07/2018 07:44 PM, claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com wrote: >>>>>> From: Claudius Heine >>>>>> >>>>>> Since multistrap is deprecated for some years, it is required >>>>>> to >>>>>> change >>>>>> to debootstrap. >>>>>> >>>>>> This patch introduces the 'isar-bootstrap' recipe that >>>>>> implement >>>>>> the >>>>>> creation of a minimal base root file system using debootstrap. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why do you use term 'bootstrap'? It's completely different topic >>>>> than >>>>> debootstrap. >>>> >>>> Because I want to be implementation independent. If for some reason >>>> someone wants to change the name of the tool again (I know its not >>>> to >>>> be expected), this way only the implementation of the isar- >>>> bootstrap >>>> needs to be changed. >>>> In theory with an alternative implementation of some interfaces >>>> other >>>> distribution could be supported. I don't know in which direction >>>> isar >>>> will go, but binding your interface names to tightly to the name of >>>> some third-party products is not a good idea. >>>> >>>> What I tried is called loose coupling and that is generally seen as >>>> a >>>> good software design pattern. >>>> >>>>>    According to the wiki: >>>>> >>>>> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBootstrap#Bootstrapping >>>>> >>>>> Bootstraping is a process of creation Debian from zero to a full >>>>> archive. >>>> >>>> The word "bootstrapping" is used in many projects and generally >>>> describes starting something from almost nothing. Also this >>>> patchset >>>> doesn't use "DebianBootstrap" is uses "isar-bootstrap". >>> >>> In this case just do not use terms from Debian world. >> >> I didn't. I use 'isar-bootstrap' and neither it nor its parts 'isar' >> nor 'bootstrap' is a term that is exclusively used with Debian. >> >> 'bootstrap' is a common term in computer science with many different >> meaning. If someone heard 'bootstrap' only used by the Debian project >> before, that that is their problem. I think I heard it first in some >> projects as the 'bootstrap.sh' shell script that takes care about >> initializing the build environment correctly. I might have been a bit >> confused when I heard that they also describe the first compilation of >> compiler by an other one written in a different language as >> bootstrapping, but that might just be because English is my second >> language. >> >>>   It would be enough >>> to name it like 'base-rootfs'. That's for example, how 'buildchroot' >>> term was invented, to avoid intersections with 'sysroot' and >>> 'buildroot'. >> >> 'sysroot' and 'buildroot' are names that where invented by someone, >> 'bootstrap' is a word, like 'face' or 'book'. I don't automatically >> think of 'facebook' just because I read the word 'book' or 'face' in >> some other context. >> >> Personally I don't like to add another '*base*' thing to isar. We > > I didn't ask to use it, I only tried to describe the idea. Whatever else > could be used, but without intersections with Debian. > >> already have 'isar-image-base' and 'dpkg-base'. And this recipe is >> should not be used as a 'base' to be included or inherited upon like >> the others. So 'base-roofs' as a recipe name does not fit IMO. >> >> (Also when I hear 'base' I think about numbers and get very confused ;) >> >> I still prefer 'isar-bootstrap' since its output should be what of some >>   kind of distro-specific system bootstrap machanism, like debootstrap, >> febootstrap (now supermin), pacstrap, ..., generates. >> If the distro-specific bootstrap mechanism builds its 'bootstraped root >> file system' from a bunch of binary packages or directly from source is >> implementation and distro specific. So the distinction only makes sense >> in the upstream project but not here, since we are just using what the >> upstream distributions provides for general consumption. > > I asked the question, but you cut it, so I'm going to repost the whole > quote here: > > 8<-- > > AFAIK there are 2 kinds opinions in Debian community about bootstraping: >  - Build from sources (DebianBootstrap, rebootstrap) >  - Install from debs (debootstrap) > > My question, why it's so important to use initially ambiguous term, > which may lead to potential confusing for Debian users? > > 8<-- I hope we can settle on this topic quickly, specifically as this internal naming of classes are not really user-facing. Jan -- Siemens AG, Corporate Technology, CT RDA IOT SES-DE Corporate Competence Center Embedded Linux