From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-GM-THRID: 6522397978051739648 X-Received: by 10.28.190.2 with SMTP id o2mr1018581wmf.2.1518700697960; Thu, 15 Feb 2018 05:18:17 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: isar-users@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.28.141.4 with SMTP id p4ls28174wmd.12.canary-gmail; Thu, 15 Feb 2018 05:18:17 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x226OvItMRxaYN0usYJqB0Gm8XU+RZ+FHiPxCQQv3d0Qj/8lpvZcI0yyttfQP2fWa+gh/cvKw X-Received: by 10.28.145.139 with SMTP id t133mr926627wmd.21.1518700697372; Thu, 15 Feb 2018 05:18:17 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1518700697; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=hQn40x87bLOkkjc8Zq3RlXmfA6R2e1InApx7DaM78N4Bm8FldY4by5TgprdY74YdCM sZbVkvwXfM1BK1VMwbKAKXB5p2J6qaVkMpGoWer8UrB6g49w2owMnBO746McGoYLibVy bhkRxkYX1mJyboejK5BRFU8lDmNkH08hPO58tWC6kMJYZQc/JlofIYJvrN5NvapzbK46 ehOpOrZUsTzV44PuYE0eNH1GtjuDJPJ3NZKp8lmDWx9ETex/KalJ2OUMFjQgn8IWQepn 5CIJHlsAHMtKK0ifgWN3acv57h58MCcLDAGprBT/3+PvKzx6qx34wyzEn1AQB6sNxGDW GqvA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-language:in-reply-to:mime-version :user-agent:date:message-id:from:references:to:subject :arc-authentication-results; bh=0dYjewK7zHdd8c+H1Z6PE8ZxszCWMGV3MMNIVUgplWM=; b=a/EACo7Y+QXXOMB9s0WEv34bLYZfCZVIn0vSgNjO+KZOZWgeDKsnKo6rGHgTykzLBP 9TpJKhNMsB+I72FWuEzZYXFo4Uax/RfVqlmwcOaQ8cvZ+ZMOG9bTPBZBjOoZMtxUIjRG mHJnwlDelukuU7SMBzKWWC444xVlfmMn08t+v+3AKk+HUn2uu83a4q40rltw/AHaL1dQ Sp2p4Q+6YCBPumb9ZhS3y+6r3Uf69VBqJ1WkYDttm7ymsHd7qEvpFcbNBiUYy1DiJmYv MI5uGpKWYo1pc9L2PHoGanLSSNP09ZxJRyILli035eQ71iC6eWxwnUylz43ohBdgVZHG 9Fug== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jan.kiszka@siemens.com designates 192.35.17.14 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jan.kiszka@siemens.com Return-Path: Received: from david.siemens.de (david.siemens.de. [192.35.17.14]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a138si98602wmd.0.2018.02.15.05.18.17 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 15 Feb 2018 05:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jan.kiszka@siemens.com designates 192.35.17.14 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.35.17.14; Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jan.kiszka@siemens.com designates 192.35.17.14 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jan.kiszka@siemens.com Received: from mail3.siemens.de (mail3.siemens.de [139.25.208.14]) by david.siemens.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w1FDIG1S022041 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2018 14:18:16 +0100 Received: from [139.25.68.37] (md1q0hnc.ad001.siemens.net [139.25.68.37] (may be forged)) by mail3.siemens.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w1FDIGG9030971 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2018 14:18:16 +0100 Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/2] centralize multistrap configuration generation To: isar-users@googlegroups.com References: <20180214131509.16361-1-claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com> <20180214131509.16361-3-claudius.heine.ext@siemens.com> <1eaf1493-e834-ce50-9e75-ff5795348b58@ilbers.de> <923f3293-320b-9172-14aa-3b3a372a1dfa@siemens.com> <20180215112741.GB5374@yssyq.radix50.net> From: Jan Kiszka Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 14:18:15 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); de; rv:1.8.1.12) Gecko/20080226 SUSE/2.0.0.12-1.1 Thunderbird/2.0.0.12 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180215112741.GB5374@yssyq.radix50.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-TUID: rwUZsVE1Bkob On 2018-02-15 12:27, Baurzhan Ismagulov wrote: > On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 11:15:02AM +0100, Jan Kiszka wrote: >>> That shows to me that upstream might be interested in some of these >>> improvements we would need to implement. >> >> Exactly. We should really use the community-proven, continuously tested >> official approach of Debian, in that in a way that it foresees for it. >> >> Let's bury multistrap. Its a dead horse we rode to long now. > > First off, thanks for cutting the many lines of code not being referred to :) . > > Regarding multistrap, both approaches have advantages and disadvantages. > Moreover, there are other implementations, such as cdebootstrap. > > > Multistrap is currently useful in the following ways: > > 1. Generate the list of packages to install using several apt repos. > > 2. Provide the package paths to download from apt repos. > > 3. Generate the base system from several apt repos. > > Unfortunately, all three seem to be unique among the three candidates. > > > (1) and (2) are necessary for reproducibility. My preferred solution would be > to use an apt library that would do that for us (e.g., extract it from apt, > extend python-debian, or look whether aptly provides that). Moving to > *debootstrap would require solving those in a community-unmaintained way for > some time. > > (3) is useful for people with customizations cutting off significant dependency > chains from Debian (like SLIND did with Perl dependencies). Moving to > *debootstrap would mean first installing those, then apt-getting our layers > above the base system, then removing the packages that are no more required. > > This was the main reason for Neil Williams to create multistrap. After trying > to wrap debootstrap for some time, he ended up with problems not solvable in > that way (not sure which, maybe some kinds of circular dependencies or > dependencies on exact package versions). So, it would be wise to consider his > experience here. > > That said, on DebConf17, he told us that that use case is not interesting for > him any more, advised to use debootstrap, and said that he doesn't support > multistrap any more. > > Regarding maintaining multistrap for some time: I personally don't like Perl. > That said, Alex looked at that recently; it's some reasonable wrapping around > apt-get. If the problem in the end is solved with apt-get, we should possibly > evaluate that, too. > > > Regarding debootstrap, the problem is that it is implemented in shell, which is > horrible for any serious improvements. Thus the question about cdebootstrap. > > > All in all, I'd like to see a solution that would offer serious benefits while > not introducing new problems. Currently, multistrap is an internal issue not > directly affecting user-visible features. There are many features we can do for > far better Debian support. Changing one bit with another, not better one > wouldn't change the big picture. So, I'd rather use this opportunity to start a > bigger effort of defining the requirements, choosing the tools to merge with, > provide a working PoC, and start working with Debian on reusability of those > tools in Isar. IMHO, *debootstrap alone wouldn't bring major architectural > improvements. Let's wait for a first prototype. Maybe it will become clearer that we actually need, if debootstrap can do it, or if we are better of writing the core and best all the bootstarps in Isar recipes. Fact is (as I have been told): debootstarp is Debian standard, all others are secondary or even historic variants. So let's go standard first, and then see if we need more again. Jan -- Siemens AG, Corporate Technology, CT RDA IOT SES-DE Corporate Competence Center Embedded Linux