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Thu, 26 Sep 2024 08:52:44 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2024 10:52:43 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Proposal for Adding OE/Yocto-Style Features Variables to Isar To: Christopher Larson , isar-users@googlegroups.com References: <27f2f225-d7c4-40dd-a4db-431eeb31cc52@siemens.com> Content-Language: en-US From: "'Jan Kiszka' via isar-users" Autocrypt: addr=jan.kiszka@siemens.com; keydata= xsFNBGZY+hkBEACkdtFD81AUVtTVX+UEiUFs7ZQPQsdFpzVmr6R3D059f+lzr4Mlg6KKAcNZ uNUqthIkgLGWzKugodvkcCK8Wbyw+1vxcl4Lw56WezLsOTfu7oi7Z0vp1XkrLcM0tofTbClW xMA964mgUlBT2m/J/ybZd945D0wU57k/smGzDAxkpJgHBrYE/iJWcu46jkGZaLjK4xcMoBWB I6hW9Njxx3Ek0fpLO3876bszc8KjcHOulKreK+ezyJ01Hvbx85s68XWN6N2ulLGtk7E/sXlb 79hylHy5QuU9mZdsRjjRGJb0H9Buzfuz0XrcwOTMJq7e7fbN0QakjivAXsmXim+s5dlKlZjr L3ILWte4ah7cGgqc06nFb5jOhnGnZwnKJlpuod3pc/BFaFGtVHvyoRgxJ9tmDZnjzMfu8YrA +MVv6muwbHnEAeh/f8e9O+oeouqTBzgcaWTq81IyS56/UD6U5GHet9Pz1MB15nnzVcyZXIoC roIhgCUkcl+5m2Z9G56bkiUcFq0IcACzjcRPWvwA09ZbRHXAK/ao/+vPAIMnU6OTx3ejsbHn oh6VpHD3tucIt+xA4/l3LlkZMt5FZjFdkZUuAVU6kBAwElNBCYcrrLYZBRkSGPGDGYZmXAW/ VkNUVTJkRg6MGIeqZmpeoaV2xaIGHBSTDX8+b0c0hT/Bgzjv8QARAQABzSNKYW4gS2lzemth IDxqYW4ua2lzemthQHNpZW1lbnMuY29tPsLBlAQTAQoAPhYhBABMZH11cs99cr20+2mdhQqf QXvYBQJmWPvXAhsDBQkFo5qABQsJCAcCBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEGmdhQqfQXvY zPAP/jGiVJ2VgPcRWt2P8FbByfrJJAPCsos+SZpncRi7tl9yTEpS+t57h7myEKPdB3L+kxzg K3dt1UhYp4FeIHA3jpJYaFvD7kNZJZ1cU55QXrJI3xu/xfB6VhCs+VAUlt7XhOsOmTQqCpH7 pRcZ5juxZCOxXG2fTQTQo0gfF5+PQwQYUp0NdTbVox5PTx5RK3KfPqmAJsBKdwEaIkuY9FbM 9lGg8XBNzD2R/13cCd4hRrZDtyegrtocpBAruVqOZhsMb/h7Wd0TGoJ/zJr3w3WnDM08c+RA 5LHMbiA29MXq1KxlnsYDfWB8ts3HIJ3ROBvagA20mbOm26ddeFjLdGcBTrzbHbzCReEtN++s gZneKsYiueFDTxXjUOJgp8JDdVPM+++axSMo2js8TwVefTfCYt0oWMEqlQqSqgQwIuzpRO6I ik7HAFq8fssy2cY8Imofbj77uKz0BNZC/1nGG1OI9cU2jHrqsn1i95KaS6fPu4EN6XP/Gi/O 0DxND+HEyzVqhUJkvXUhTsOzgzWAvW9BlkKRiVizKM6PLsVm/XmeapGs4ir/U8OzKI+SM3R8 VMW8eovWgXNUQ9F2vS1dHO8eRn2UqDKBZSo+qCRWLRtsqNzmU4N0zuGqZSaDCvkMwF6kIRkD ZkDjjYQtoftPGchLBTUzeUa2gfOr1T4xSQUHhPL8zsFNBGZY+hkBEADb5quW4M0eaWPIjqY6 aC/vHCmpELmS/HMa5zlA0dWlxCPEjkchN8W4PB+NMOXFEJuKLLFs6+s5/KlNok/kGKg4fITf Vcd+BQd/YRks3qFifckU+kxoXpTc2bksTtLuiPkcyFmjBph/BGms35mvOA0OaEO6fQbauiHa QnYrgUQM+YD4uFoQOLnWTPmBjccoPuiJDafzLxwj4r+JH4fA/4zzDa5OFbfVq3ieYGqiBrtj tBFv5epVvGK1zoQ+Rc+h5+dCWPwC2i3cXTUVf0woepF8mUXFcNhY+Eh8vvh1lxfD35z2CJeY txMcA44Lp06kArpWDjGJddd+OTmUkFWeYtAdaCpj/GItuJcQZkaaTeiHqPPrbvXM361rtvaw XFUzUlvoW1Sb7/SeE/BtWoxkeZOgsqouXPTjlFLapvLu5g9MPNimjkYqukASq/+e8MMKP+EE v3BAFVFGvNE3UlNRh+ppBqBUZiqkzg4q2hfeTjnivgChzXlvfTx9M6BJmuDnYAho4BA6vRh4 Dr7LYTLIwGjguIuuQcP2ENN+l32nidy154zCEp5/Rv4K8SYdVegrQ7rWiULgDz9VQWo2zAjo TgFKg3AE3ujDy4V2VndtkMRYpwwuilCDQ+Bpb5ixfbFyZ4oVGs6F3jhtWN5Uu43FhHSCqUv8 FCzl44AyGulVYU7hTQARAQABwsF8BBgBCgAmFiEEAExkfXVyz31yvbT7aZ2FCp9Be9gFAmZY +hkCGwwFCQWjmoAACgkQaZ2FCp9Be9hN3g/8CdNqlOfBZGCFNZ8Kf4tpRpeN3TGmekGRpohU bBMvHYiWW8SvmCgEuBokS+Lx3pyPJQCYZDXLCq47gsLdnhVcQ2ZKNCrr9yhrj6kHxe1Sqv1S MhxD8dBqW6CFe/mbiK9wEMDIqys7L0Xy/lgCFxZswlBW3eU2Zacdo0fDzLiJm9I0C9iPZzkJ gITjoqsiIi/5c3eCY2s2OENL9VPXiH1GPQfHZ23ouiMf+ojVZ7kycLjz+nFr5A14w/B7uHjz uL6tnA+AtGCredDne66LSK3HD0vC7569sZ/j8kGKjlUtC+zm0j03iPI6gi8YeCn9b4F8sLpB lBdlqo9BB+uqoM6F8zMfIfDsqjB0r/q7WeJaI8NKfFwNOGPuo93N+WUyBi2yYCXMOgBUifm0 T6Hbf3SHQpbA56wcKPWJqAC2iFaxNDowcJij9LtEqOlToCMtDBekDwchRvqrWN1mDXLg+av8 qH4kDzsqKX8zzTzfAWFxrkXA/kFpR3JsMzNmvextkN2kOLCCHkym0zz5Y3vxaYtbXG2wTrqJ 8WpkWIE8STUhQa9AkezgucXN7r6uSrzW8IQXxBInZwFIyBgM0f/fzyNqzThFT15QMrYUqhhW ZffO4PeNJOUYfXdH13A6rbU0y6xE7Okuoa01EqNi9yqyLA8gPgg/DhOpGtK8KokCsdYsTbk= In-Reply-To: <27f2f225-d7c4-40dd-a4db-431eeb31cc52@siemens.com> Content-Type: text/plain; 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dkim=pass header.i=@siemens.com header.s=selector2 header.b=n0g9wavl; arc=pass (i=1 spf=pass spfdomain=siemens.com dkim=pass dkdomain=siemens.com dmarc=pass fromdomain=siemens.com); spf=pass (google.com: domain of jan.kiszka@siemens.com designates 2a01:111:f403:260c::631 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jan.kiszka@siemens.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=siemens.com X-Original-From: Jan Kiszka Reply-To: Jan Kiszka Precedence: list Mailing-list: list isar-users@googlegroups.com; contact isar-users+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: isar-users@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 914930254986 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=DKIMWL_WL_MED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_PASS, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on shymkent.ilbers.de X-TUID: sTB11eHidCwB On 25.09.24 22:27, 'Christopher Larson' via isar-users wrote: > Dear Isar Users, >=20 > I would like to start a discussion about the possibility of supporting > OE/Yocto-style features variables within the Isar project. Currently, > Isar implements BASE_REPO_FEATURES and ROOTFS_FEATURES, which are quite > useful. However, I believe that adding support for DISTRO_FEATURES, > MACHINE_FEATURES, and possibly IMAGE_FEATURES would be worthwhile > additions to consider. >=20 > I want to preface this by acknowledging that my perspective is > influenced by decades of experience with OpenEmbedded (OE) and OE-based > products. I recognize that Isar has a different philosophy, favoring > more direct approaches and fewer abstractions compared to OE. >=20 > That said, I believe the value of these abstractions may justify the > added complexity. It seems that many downstreams end up reinventing > similar mechanisms for their own needs. For example, CIP adds > INSTALL_WIRELESS_TOOLS, USE_CIP_KERNEL_CONFIG, and CIP_IMAGE_OPTIONS, > the latter being a list of .inc files required by an image to allow for > metadata reuse. Our usage at Siemens includes similar reinventions as wel= l. >=20 > Certainly, we could leverage ROOTFS_FEATURES for certain rootfs/image > capabilities beyond the existing postprocessing in Isar. Establishing a > convention for including optional rootfs/image capabilities could avoid > metadata duplication, simplify managing development vs. production > filesystems, and provide customization mechanisms for downstreams. >=20 > Regarding DISTRO_FEATURES and MACHINE_FEATURES, the Yocto documentation > covers them in general. The original intention was to allow for a > mechanism similar to Gentoo=E2=80=99s USE flags, coupled with OE=E2=80=99= s three > orthogonal axes of distro, machine, and image. The intersection of these > would control the outcome, allowing any combination to be viable. This > results in machine support that is not tightly coupled to distro > capabilities or policy decisions, avoiding the pattern of each > downstream copying and modifying both distro and machine in a single > layer. This decoupling could prevent issues like machines installing > packages such as expand-on-first-boot unnecessarily. >=20 > In OE, the intersection of these features determines certain > functionalities. A common example is hardware capabilities like WiFi or > Bluetooth, where the distro expresses a desire to support certain > functionalities. Only if both the distro and machine support it will the > required packages be installed. >=20 > Details would need to be worked out, even if it is determined that this > provides more value than it adds in complexity. The core of the global > features in OE is their intersection in packagegroup-base, which > determines the default installed packages in images built from the > ground up. While this doesn=E2=80=99t make sense in Isar with a Debian ba= se > image, there are still optional functionalities requiring package > installation. Often, this requires more than just a single > IMAGE_PREINSTALL line, so there=E2=80=99s value in having a simpler way t= o > express a desire to support that functionality. Isar may not need to > utilize this functionality directly, but it could be beneficial to > provide it for downstream use. >=20 > Downstreams can and do implement functionality like this if they want > to, so I understand the argument for continuing this approach. However, > I believe there is value in providing basic functions to utilize such > capabilities and documented conventions for doing so consistently. >=20 > I would love to hear what both Isar core developers and downstream > developers think about the possibility of providing a mechanism for > using variables like these. I believe that the ability to provide an > easier customization mechanism and an abstraction to better separate > concerns between the distro, machine, and images would be valuable. It > would also ease rootfs customization based on desired system features > (distro) and hardware capabilities (machine), if one uses these to > adjust ROOTFS_FEATURES. >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t believe the default behavior of OE=E2=80=99s IMAGE_FEATUR= ES, where > package lists are defined in FEATURE_PACKAGES_, is worth including here. > It=E2=80=99s not difficult for developers to manually implement package g= rouping > using features if needed, and it=E2=80=99s often better to create separat= e > packages if multiple dependencies should be pulled in at once. >=20 > Looking forward to your thoughts and feedback. >=20 > Best regards, Thanks for the suggestion. As you mentioned already that you see potential to re-model and unify existing public layers with such a proposal, how about laying out how those would look like? Would make this discussion a bit more concrete, specifically for those of us not so long into OE like you are. Jan --=20 Siemens AG, Technology Linux Expert Center --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= isar-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to isar-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= isar-users/ce2b37a9-c0bb-41e3-bb81-40625472ee84%40siemens.com.